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Author Topic: Getting Youth More Actively Involved In Naturism  (Read 6162 times)
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HarleyNude
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« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2007, 04:00:03 AM »

I originally stayed out of this topic for awhile to see what others would have to offer...  I was thinking about the issue again this week, as the national AANR convention approaches this coming week in Oregon.  It surely will be a discussed topic at the round tables.

So... I was surfing the vast information highway and found this interesting blog ... I have to say this is one of the best written articles I've ever come across when trying to answer the original topic question....

Ryan




http://www.gymnophiliac.com/2007/05/generation-y.html#8670680919610116325

Generation Y

Originally I'd planned this as part of a marketing nudism series; but discussions elsewhere (and time constraints of late) made me decide to spin this off into its own topic. There's been quite a bit of hubbub around the nudist blogosphere recently which was spawned by an article about Solair's recent attempt to attract a more youthful demographic. This isn't a new concern for nudists - this is something that's long been absurd and gets discussed ad nauseum on fora and elsewhere. And as a representative of Generation Y*, I figure it's finally time to address this.

Anyway, the question at hand is this: why are nudist resorts dominated by baby boomers, and members of Generation Y and even Generation X are rarely seen?

There's a human tendency to try to look for single factor explanations, and I've noticed a lot of the commentary so far tends to focus on one factor or another. I believe the reality of the matter though is that there are many factors at work here, and what follows is my best attempt to list them all.

*Since the definition is a tad fuzzy, here's mine: Generation Y was born between approximately 1977-1990ish, currently aged 18-30. Generation X is older, "Millennials" are in Junior High and High School. Baby Boomers should need no introduction. Also, As coincidence would have it, the current issue of Fortune magazine has a spot on profile of Generation Y. Though it has nothing to do with nudism, it does do a good job of describing the generation and laying out some of the key differences between us and everyone who came before. It provides some insight into the way this generation thinks.

1. It's dominated by baby boomers.

People hang out in their peer groups. Married couples tend to hang out with married couples. Single people hang out with single people. Senior citizens join senior citizen groups. Teenagers hang out with other teenagers, and college students hang out with other college students. And for the most part, these groups don't intermingle with one another. Think about it - in how many activities do you really see different generations hanging out with each other? I'm sure there must be some, but offhand I can't think of any.

From my own experience: I'm 24. I see my parents often, but I don't hang out with them. I certainly don't hang out with my grandparents. I don't have kids, I don't have a house. I don't care about the stock market. At this stage of my life, my social activities revolve around going to bars and meeting girls. When I go to swim nights or mingle with other nudists on the beach, everyone is quite friendly - but I simply don't have that much in common with them.

This is thoroughly a chicken and egg problem, but it is the biggest barrier to getting young people to participate - they don't already have anything to offer younger people, socially speaking. The problem is compounded when you realize that nudist resorts tailor their offerings to their primary audience, and essentially create retirement homes without clothes. Ask yourself "Why don't teenagers hang out at retirement homes?" and you'll have an answer as to why nudist resorts hold such little appeal. To appeal to young people you need to have young people around, and preferably have no old people around.

2. It's the economy, stupid

This is something I've pointed out many times and many ways on this blog, but it bears repeating. The barriers of entry to nudism are huge. It requires a substantial commitment of both time and money just to try it. It's very difficult for people who are simply curious and offers no way for people to just try it out on a whim. Baby boomers have the cash and time to fly to Florida and stay at a resort, or drive for a few hours to spend a weekend at the nearest club. Generation Y by and large doesn't - we're entering a weak economy in a globalized job market saddled with tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt out of the gate. And when we do have the money, it's not appealing enough to justify the investment over everything else competing for our time and money.

3. Individualism

Tom Mulhall, owner of Terra Cotta Inn in Palm Springs made a great point about this the other day. Teenagers love to go bowling; it's one of the few things they can do legally. But they don't join bowling leagues. Nudists tend to be fixated on the "nude" aspect, but ignore the larger social context. If bowling leagues can't gain traction despite the popularity of the sport, what chance to formal nudist clubs have? The Nudist Travel blog expanded on this and described exactly what Solair is doing wrong - it's formal, it's regimented, and acts like a hierarchical organization.

What we have now is the largest generation gap since the dawn of Rock and Roll. There's just something about people under 30 that people over 30 can't seem to get. A lot of this new gap is driven by technology. People under 30 are digital natives - we don't know a world without cell phones, instant messaging and the web. We don't know what it's like to not be connected to our friends 24/7. We grew up with it, it's in our blood. People over 30... they might use these tools, but they're not really part of their culture.

It's more than just the technology though, because the technology has a ripple effect throughout everything else. We're more tolerant, more accepting, and almost totally free of many of the "isms" of the past. Race and ethnicity are non-issues. No one cares if you're gay. While there are still subcultures and groups we belong to, they're not really part of our self identity. Why? Because Generation Y is more self centered than any generation that came before. We're individualistic, and celebrate individualism. It's cool to be different. The idea of an in-group and out-group is fairly antiquated because we all live at the center of our own unique social network. They're flat, highly informal, constantly in flux, and vehicles for self expression.

The nudist world, by contrast, is built on clubs, memberships, and hierarchical regimented organizations. We're offering bowling leagues when all Generation Y really wants is bowling alleys.


4. It's not sexy.

There's one thing that the hasn't changed in the last half century - kids want to be cool above all else. And there's just nothing cool about being a nudist.

But what's cool in the 21st century? Well, as a rule of thumb, being cool is synonymous with being sexy. Every marketer on the face of the Earth that wants to reach the youth demographic tries to make their products sexy. BMW? Sexy. The iPod? Sexy. Coke and Pepsi? Sexy. Concerts? Dripping with sexuality. MTV? 24/7 sex appeal. You get the idea.But nudists - they're so hung up on being nonsexual thing that they deliberately try to make their "product" look as un-sexy as possible. Given that, is it really surprising it only attracts people who've lost interest in sex?

I don't think I've ever read an article about nudism where a defender didn't call it "Family Friendly". I challenge you to find a nudist magazine, brochure, or web site that doesn't have the phrase "Family Friendly" plastered all over nearly every page. As I've noted before, this is a quasi-orwellian phrase invented by the religious right to be synonymous with their anti-sexual notion of morality. But family friendly also means something else, at least in the minds of Generation Y and Millennials. Family Friendly = Lame. Think about it - when was the last time you knew teenagers or 20 somethings to be interested in doing something described as "family friendly"?

These are new adults for whom the freedom to do previously forbidden or taboo "adult" things is still novel and exciting. They don't have kids, and an atmosphere designed to be "safe" for young kids simply doesn't appeal to young adults. They like sexy, they like edgy, they like all sorts of things that you wouldn't want to expose a nine year old to. And when those things aren't present, they're less than enthused.


If we want to attract young people, nudism has to be sexy. It needs to have energy, atmosphere, and most importantly girls. The first question I get when I've invited friends to try out the nude beach with me is "Will there be girls?" - and any interest wanes pretty quickly when I reveal that any there are will be likely be twice our age.


When I've spoken to girls my age about this, the object is different but has the same root. They're not worried that nudism is sexualized. Think about it - girls today wear thong bikinis, flash their boobs at parties, and think nothing of bare midriffs. Does it seem like they're body shy? Of course not - but the reason they do these things is because girls like to feel sexy and that stuff makes them feel sexy. Nudists send out the message "Try nudism! It's not sexy! And it's okay if you're ugly!"


Nude recreation can be sexy without being sexual. The problem I've found is that a lot of older people see sex in a black and white way: it's either completely asexual, or people are having an orgy on the beach. Generation Y has a much more fine grained (and frankly, more mature) view of sexuality. The problem isn't that they can't separate nudity from sex; quite the contrary, they grasp it far more intuitively than many of their baby boomer parents. The problem that older generation nudists try to scrub sex from everything, and that's a turn off.


5. It's boring.

Kind of reiterating my first point, but 20-somethings have energy. College students more so. And teenagers never sit still.

Sunbathing isn't fun. Neither is sitting in a hot tub. Or any "sport" that mostly involves standing around (I'm looking at you, shuffleboard). Swimming can be, but pools at resorts are rarely well suited for rambunctious games.

"Come to our resort, where you'll have the chance to sit around all day and do nothing!" just doesn't work.

6. If it's not on Google, it doesn't exist.

Another biggy; our internet presence sucks (something which I've commented on time and again). A lot of the reason it sucks is because of "nudist porn" and the co-opting of our terms. But we have to realize that we're not going to reach them anywhere else. Seriously. I have no clue how anyone would ever find out anything about nudism if not for the web - I don't know how people did it 20 years ago. The web is our point of contact with Generation Y and Millennials; you're not going to reach them on any other medium.

The thing about this point is that it's the easiest to change, it just takes some initiative, know how, and fifteen minutes on the part of nudists across the web. If you run a resort, look into an Adwords campaign. If you're hosting an event, advertise it on craigslist. Create a Myspace page for your group or organization. Create a web page or blog where you talk about being a nudist, and give link love to nudist sites you like. It'll help exponentially.

7. It's NOT the religious right.

Not culturally anyway. Basically, I just write off 25% of the country as f'in insane and not worth the effort. Most people who aren't the religious right also think they're insane. They do have influence as a voting block; but not socially. The religious right, for all their bitching, have lost every fight they've fought. Homosexuality is more accepted now than ever, with full marriage rights just around the corner. Porn has gone mainstream. People use naughty words on TV. Etc.

Pay close attention to these uproars the religious right causes. For every person who goes "OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!" at the site of Janet Jackson's nipple, there's another one who doesn't care. For every person who freaks out at nudity, there's people who see it as free speech. We're easily talking about 30-40% of the population here, maybe more. Yeah, the "religious right" is a problem if we're trying to attract young people that are only willing to get naked for the rapture... but that doesn't stop us from attracting the other 75% who think that idea is as stupid as I do.

Now, the negative effect that they do have is over the legal environment. Television and movie censorship has yet to be eliminated entirely, and they're the main reason why. They're the ones who fight to close nude beaches, raise uproars about new venues, and keep skinny dipping and public nudity illegal in most of the country. In short, they create an environment in this country that makes experimenting with social nudity all but impossible; and it's hard to make take the "next step" of going to a resort without taking that "first step" of trying it on your own.

In conclusion

I think the bottom line is that the kind of organized nudism represented by AANR and similar organizations just doesn't have much to offer Generation Y, for the reasons outlines above, and whether or not they'll get into it in greater numbers as they grow up remains to be seen. I actually agree with what Nudiarist said at the end of his post; the future of nudism lies more in beaches and clothing optional public lands than in resorts and clubs. The best way to get more young people into it is by making sure they have the chance to try it on their own terms.
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jondavx
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« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2007, 05:03:08 AM »

that is the best explanations ever composed.

i concur.....even as an oldie that most resorts i've seen are just naked caravan parks. not very inspiring.

i also agree that in striving to remove the "sexual" from nudism many organisations appear to have eliminated the "sexy" with it. Not that i have an answer as to how you keep one without also getting the other.


cheers
jon

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jj1982
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« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2007, 05:33:41 AM »

Great article . . . depressing, but great.
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LiamNSW
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« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2007, 08:53:13 AM »

give young people an area of their own that's a start, i don't hang out with oldies at home, why would i at a club?
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« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2007, 01:11:05 PM »

Wow, that's the article I would have written if I could write articles like that! I suppose that only leaves the question - now what?
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NickLPMA
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« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2007, 03:32:59 PM »

absolutely brilliant article that hits every point i have when debating this subject.

the problem is that when you have the aforementioned hierarchical organizations of older people running clubs you'll find them to have deaf ears. i agree with the author that the future of nude recreation is probably at the beach, and i'd also add 18+ clothing optional/nude travel venues and cruises, which tend to actually deal with alot of the things mentioned here.
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sara
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« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2007, 04:54:30 PM »

It is so very true how it is clear that existing naturist clubs and resorts seem very set in their ways with little to attract young people to join up.

I have heard this said time and again but they show liitle sign of being prepared to adapt to help encourage younger naturists by having say separate sections / areas with activities that will atract young people rather than just the "retirement home" mentality that is so unappealing.

I have said this before on this board, I think there could be a gap in the market for someone creating new nudist centres / clubs that truelly cater for a younger crowd.  Say with pools, flumes, other sports, maybe bands appearing in the evening, good food outlets, internet cafes etc.  Basically creating a place that young people would be attacted to visit clothed but have a chance to enjoy the freedom of being nude.

That said, I do also agree that much of the future depends on having many more accessoble clothing optional beaches and public land. 

Whether it be at beaches, public land or at some centre / club, I consider space to simply enjoy the freedom of being nude should be uppermost.  Anything organised should be appealing to young people,  that they would enjoy doing clothed,  but can maybe discover how more enjoyable it can maybe be in a naturist environment. 
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« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2007, 05:27:51 PM »

Why do images of chickens and eggs spring to mind, like a suped-up gazelle?

It's all very well to say "we want this, we want that" - but all of this sounds hideously expensive and is aimed at who, exactly? Who actually wants it (not just says they want it) now, this minute?

I'm afraid that I just sigh every time I read the line "nudism has to be sexy" too. I've read it so many times...

Sorry. Don't agree. It doesn't have to be (and it is not) asexual - but we're not selling BMW's or iPods here. Part of the appeal of naturism is the removal of all that superfluous, superficial... crap! I cringe every time I see naturism referred to as a "product".

Without wanting to re-open the whole debate on naturism and sexuality (because it's been done to death), you can't make naturism "sexy" without excluding a significant number of people or actually changing what it's all about. If you have signs at the gate saying "you must look at least this hot to be admitted [see picture aside]" - well, then that's not naturism, is it?

I'm strongly of the opinion that one of the fundamental naturist philosophies is that it really does not matter if a person is "ugly", "fat", "short", etc. These things are publicised because they are what many people fear, when they first think about becoming involved in naturism. They worry that they "don't have the body to go nude".

How sad it would be if that came to be true, because we need to make naturism "sexy".
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kensington25
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« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2007, 05:55:53 PM »

Noodie, right on bro! Yep as I've said in other threads naturism is what ever you want it to be. To make naturism acceptable to many people you have to have as few rules and be as unset in your ways as possible. People have to do what feels right to them. You need a wide variety of things to cater for different tastes. All these things cost money but in the long run if you cater for more tastes you get more people and will make the money back in the long term. We'll all be winners.  agree William
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NickLPMA
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« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2007, 02:42:35 PM »

Quote
Without wanting to re-open the whole debate on naturism and sexuality (because it's been done to death), you can't make naturism "sexy" without excluding a significant number of people or actually changing what it's all about. If you have signs at the gate saying "you must look at least this hot to be admitted [see picture aside]" - well, then that's not naturism, is it?

I'm strongly of the opinion that one of the fundamental naturist philosophies is that it really does not matter if a person is "ugly", "fat", "short", etc. These things are publicised because they are what many people fear, when they first think about becoming involved in naturism. They worry that they "don't have the body to go nude".

How sad it would be if that came to be true, because we need to make naturism "sexy".

I don't necessarily think 'sexy' needs to mean only allowing or aiming for one type of person at the exclusion of others. To me sexy can mean not restrictive -which is the exact opposite of how nudist clubs are marketing themselves today. Let me put it this way---when I go to a club with my girlfriend and I have to be concerned that if I apply sunscreen to her, hug her or kiss her even briefly on the lips I may be violating one of the hundreds of regulations the club has in their 'family friendly' bible-sized rule book, that is fundamentally unsexy. And i think that's the author's point-if you want to market clubs/resorts (which the article is primarily about) to a young crowd (18-30), the worst thing you can do is take that sense of being able to be care-free or unrestricted and trash it in the holy name of being 100% 'family friendly'.

as to your larger point, nudism as a lifestyle isn't something that I think should be sold like an iPod and can mean and ought to mean different things to different people. But this particular setting of the nudist experience (the club/resort) is a commercial venture that is probably in danger of gradually dissipating because alot of the old-guard proprietors can't get past themselves and understand what younger crowds are after.

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« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2007, 05:30:08 PM »

All good points Nick, the thrust of which I agree with, as it happens.

I think that you and I have probably experienced totally different cultures, when it comes to the "rules" of organised naturism - what is acceptable and what isn't. It was a theme that emerged in the earlier thread about naturism and sexuality.

I've never experienced this whole "no sex please, we're naturists" mindset that many other people talked about in that thread and I was left wondering whether it's something that's really more to do with the particular culture of the country or region generally. I can't see that any of the things you mentioned would be frowned upon at clubs here.

As to the other point, again, things are slightly different depending upon where you are - though the need for change is pretty apparent in all settings. Clubs here aren't commercial, as such - they actually are clubs where members are expected to physically contribute something to the upkeep of the lands by doing various jobs - something that many people would rather not have to do, they'd rather contribute in other ways (e.g. financially). To some extent, the fact that they aren't commercial contributes to the problem because they feel that they need cater to no-one but their members.

It is an interesting topic and certainly one that bears talking about, but I still interpret the article that Ryan posted as calling for something else, which doesn't really have very much to do with naturism. The whole tone of it leaves a bad taste in my mouth!
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NickLPMA
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« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2007, 06:09:58 PM »

Quote
I've never experienced this whole "no sex please, we're naturists" mindset that many other people talked about in that thread and I was left wondering whether it's something that's really more to do with the particular culture of the country or region generally. I can't see that any of the things you mentioned would be frowned upon at clubs here.

I'm sure its a frame reference thing in alot of cases---and it wouldn't' shock me at ALL if European clubs carry a more common-sensical approach to behavior instead of absolute zero-tolerance policies. I can also see how you can read the article Ryan posted as turning Nudism into a commodity, though I would like to read it as NOT saying that.

as to the 'what's to be done' question that some have asked---I think it's going to take some or a large group of individuals within the naturist/nudist community with the capital and commitment to perhaps construct a venue or trips to venues that can cater to our respective age demo. Fortunately, in the US there are groups such as Castaways Travel who are composed of people who are long-time nudists who do things like 18+ nude cruises and resort discounts and try to offer a less rigid philosophy about Nude Recreation. It's a start.
 
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« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2007, 07:31:15 PM »

I've been thinking about this subject a lot, over the past couple of days.

Truth be told, I was feeling a bit grouchy when I posted my original reply (I'm experiencing a bit of discomfort at the moment, and I haven't slept much - always makes me irritable!)

Anyway, it occurs to me that the reason there aren't many young people (visibly) involved in naturism is because.... *drum roll please*

There aren't mainly young people (visibly) involved in naturism!

I think that you can have all the great facilities and activities in the world, but it's all for nought if young people don't think they have a reasonable chance of socialising with others around their own age, when they go a naturist club/resort/event. I really believe it's that which younger folk want more than anything - to see others in their own age bracket actively involved and to know that others in their own age bracket will be around, if they decide to visit a naturist venue or event.

Putting my YBN hat on again, I think that's why the group (and ones like it, in other European countries) are successful. It's certainly not because all of the places we visit have out-of-this-world facilities - it's because the group is large enough that newcomers can be assured of being around people in their own age bracket, when they decide to come to an event for the first time, and because people who have been members for a long time have formed friendships and really want to spend time with those friends.

Despite what the article says, I don't believe you really need much to make a good weekend. Yes, it's good to have luxuries and great facilities (a good sound system in the clubhouse always goes down nicely!) - but what really makes time at a naturist club enjoyable is the people you're with.

I think that's why, for the event I'm going to this weekend, two people have felt compelled to come all the way from Holland! It's not because (with all due respect to the club) they're likely to experience the best facilities in the world, ever.

I can't really see the sense in laying out millions on a resort or other venue built specifically for youth. Quite frankly, I don't think there are enough of us interested, or potentially interested, for it to be commercially viable right now. Young naturists seem to be too geographically dispersed for a fixed location to really work well.

Trips and events are a good idea though, and it is always good to see innovative new things happening.

I do also think that it is up to us (younger naturists) to support such efforts though. Lots of people do say that they want certain events laid on, or venues hired out, but then when someone actually does what they asked for, no-one supports it.

The waterpark thing is a good example. We have a night three-times yearly at Stoke Waterworld (which is well supported) and another club in the South East tried to emulate this on a monthly basis, in a similar facility. It was well supported for the first month, but then interest waned and the club had to pull out of it, because it lost so much money.

I think that young people also need to be more involved in the "machinery" of naturism. We need more young people occupying the decision-makers' seats, and more young people playing a part in deciding who those decision-makers are! I do understand that the politics of naturism isn't really the most exciting subject in the world, but it really does affect us.
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NickLPMA
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« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2007, 07:58:02 PM »

Quote
I think that young people also need to be more involved in the "machinery" of naturism. We need more young people occupying the decision-makers' seats, and more young people playing a part in deciding who those decision-makers are! I do understand that the politics of naturism isn't really the most exciting subject in the world, but it really does affect us.

 agree  and that was probably missing from my original replies. there is no question in my mind that you have to put up or shut up-as the expression here goes. Without the already naturist-inclined younger folks knocking on the doors and getting actively involved in decision making processes, there isn't any way that  building a youth targeted resort would be a priority for anyone or commercially viable at this point. but if you get folks into the political process, then you raise awareness and perhaps plant the seeds for change.

but sadly, people like to dream and complain and are often MIA when it comes to the nuts and bolts. here's hoping that at least places like the one we're at here are the beginnings of a counter to that.
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Ibrokemyipodyesterday
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« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2007, 01:49:21 AM »

Ive tried with my friends and they just say "no thanks..." and immediately the conversation turns to stunna shades and high top socks, always, for some reason
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